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Chat transcript (not edited yet – might contain transcription errors):

Thomas Roedl 0:00
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the paperless movement YouTube channel. I’m Tom solid, and I’m really excited today to welcome Layla Pomper. She’s actually from processdriven.co. And I actually found Layla on YouTube when I was, you know, looking for clicker videos, and her channel is really all about clickup. And really excited because I saw so many things in common. It is not some on the surface, talking about clickup Layla really dives deep into this tool. And I’m really excited about talking about what we think about clickup compare competition comparison to other tools, but also what the future brings for click up.

Let’s dive into this. Layla. Welcome to the show.

Unknown Speaker 0:52
Thanks. I’m so excited to be here.

Thomas Roedl 0:54
Yes, me too. And I think people will get a lot of information out of this interview. So maybe you just introduce yourself again, why you started looking into click up what’s process driven?

Unknown Speaker 1:07
Yeah, so my name is Layla, like you said, and what my business started as I was helping people find the right project management tool for them. And over time, this persistent new tool called clickup, fell onto my radar. I started using it and I was like, This is way too confusing for my clients. So I never recommended it for myself. Yeah. Yeah. You can relate,

Thomas Roedl 1:30
I can absolutely relate. That’s, that’s why I was always recommending Asana because it’s so straightforward. But we get into this, I don’t want to interrupt go on.

Unknown Speaker 1:39
We promise no whining. No, but um, so I was using it for myself, and then click 2.0 was released. And around that time, I was like, well, this is starting to become something I could roll out to my clients. And so then I started doing click up implementations as the text setup stuff I was doing that eventually only click up implementations. And then I flipped from doing more click up implementation work to click up training work. And that’s about when the YouTube channel kicked off. So now I spend a lot of my time helping people think about their business in terms of processes, which I know is the language you speak as well. And we’re really focused on making things into processes and then putting them directly in click up because when we talk about one without the other, I feel like people get lost in the abstract. So that’s what I get to do everyday,

Thomas Roedl 2:24
which is, yeah, that’s absolutely related to how you do your videos, what you’re talking about, you always see the big picture. And that’s something that I coach, my inner circle members as well all the time when we start talking about their productivity system and so on. Usually, the first question is, what tool should I use? What is the best note taking app? What is the best productivity? And I say, we don’t know yet because I don’t know your processes. And as a matter of fact, most of the people don’t know their own processes. So we usually start to looking into this and what they’re actually doing. And in the end, it doesn’t matter what tool you use, usually, you can do it on paper. So I always say once you can do it on paper, you can go paperless and, and that’s where I really relate. Yeah, two years time. This is just not looking at the tool itself. And yeah, I was sponsored by clickup.

Unknown Speaker 3:22
I am not sponsored by clickup. I did register with them. So I’m a vetted, clickup consultant. And they they gave me a rubber stamp to say I know something about clickup, which is I guess, very nice to have. But no, I would like if they gave me a T shirt or something. But I’ve I’ve gotten nothing click at this point except affiliate link stuff.

Thomas Roedl 3:41
Yeah. So and I think that that’s really important because things might change over time. And once you get to this sponsorship trap, I think it is really complicated looking at notion. You know, there’s every second video starts with and this video is sponsored by notion or by anything else. And I’d prefer to say it’s sponsored by my members, my inner circle members, they pay me so I can stay unbiased, but some of the money needs to come from and it is a lot of money you can do from sponsorship, but I would really restrict myself and I think, then I’m not able to look left and right anymore. And yeah, that’s good to know. I mean, I’m an Asana certified pro as well. And I will become this method. Click up conside and as well, that’s good to have because you learn a lot by doing these certificates. So yeah, that’s that’s good to hear. But I mean, if he would be sponsored, that’s that’s a thing if you’re a fan of something by not being sponsored.

Unknown Speaker 4:45
Yeah, my my biggest opposition to it, and this is even as someone right now, my business relies on clickup existing right now, and that’s kind of the way it goes. So in some ways you could say I’m sponsored just by being some nished. But my best performing videos and the things that get me clients and the things that you know, actually succeed for me or when I’m very critical of clickup. Yeah. So I have one of the big trends in my channel, which you’ve probably seen, and you’ve done something similar I can tell is being just more and more critical, which leads to some negative comments. But it’s the best thing because every other piece of content out there produced by clickup themselves or by sponsoring folks is, you know, clickup is perfect. It’s the tool to replace them all. And

Thomas Roedl 5:26
no, no, it’s not. Yeah, that’s, that’s a fun thing. And it’s the same with Evernote, for example. Yeah, I’m very critical when it comes to this, or notion. Yeah, we have a lot of people using logic might, me included, myself included. So I’m using it because there’s no alternative that takes the box when it comes to database connection. And this is exactly the point we will talk about as well. databases in clickup is not a thing as they claim and but I just want to mention this, this gives really the freedom as I said, People can be sponsored, that’s fine. You know, that’s that that’s, that’s a business being on YouTube being sponsored. But I myself want to be critical and really want to say if somebody sends me something for free, this happens. If people reach out to me, can you do a sponsored video as I know, but you can send it to me, I will have a look at it. But you have to agree here in this email that I can say whatever I want that I don’t need to publish anything. And this is also in the interview is going on, you know, because you just mentioned it. We have all these click up videos and saying, Yeah, we can do it all. But usually in the interviews, I go this direction. And that’s what people actually like. And there are people who dislike it. Are you saying something a good notion I hate you. And I say that go? Because I don’t need you on my channel, then. That’s fine. I think you need to be you need to be polarizing on YouTube. To really be real.

Unknown Speaker 7:03
Right? You need to have a point of view. Otherwise, I would just be a help doc. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. That’s my opinion.

Thomas Roedl 7:13
Yeah. Okay. So we

Unknown Speaker 7:15
got off topic already.

Thomas Roedl 7:18
I’m starting boring people out there, we want to dive into clickup. And we just, yeah, I just started talking about notion. So let’s go down this road. They’re about databases, I’m using notion to create other basis to reference to these information, they’re connected with each other. And click up just implemented something like the roll up and look up and things like this. What is your opinion on this?

Unknown Speaker 7:44
So click ups hole move for my analysis, at least of what they’ve put out there for 2021 and beyond is to become more database II. And their first step towards that, like you’re talking about is the relationships feature. And that will roll ups feature, but there is no lookup. And that’s the big missing piece, right? So we naturally think relationships, roll ups and lookups. Just a manual relationships, you can create one by one by one for every task and roll ups, which do actually function very well. And there definitely have a place. But long story short, clickup is not a database, yet. It’s they’ve been advertising as such for at least six months. Yeah, I think it’ll probably be another 12 months before it’s even somewhat true.

Thomas Roedl 8:28
I read already the comments below saying everything’s a database when you’re using something like this. Yes, of course. But I think we should point out how you structure the basis. And then how bloody slow clickup actually is. Don’t you agree? It is I think it is still too slow. So I can look up or, you know, feel confident about my database?

Unknown Speaker 8:53
Right? And I think the two big things I usually say to divide people for right now, because there is an overlap. There’s database elements. It is a database in some ways, but like you’re talking about with those properties, right click a standard and custom fields that the standard ones are always fixed. If this was a database like notion, you can define every single property that you wanted more air table or Google Sheet or excels when extent Yeah, but clickup is so rigid in those regards. And like you said, the load time, I usually tell people, if they have more than 150 tasks in one list, like Watch out, that’s when we start seeing slowdowns, especially if you have a lot of custom fields, and I know clickup they’re prioritizing this. They’ve said it. I wish it would have counted the number of times they said it in their big conference this year. But I would have to guess at least 100 times they use the word speed and usability improvements. But

Thomas Roedl 9:40
this they don’t have control over this yet. Because they’re mentioning it so many times. So yeah, this is

Unknown Speaker 9:48
either using the keyword that counts or something.

Thomas Roedl 9:51
Yeah. When I was talking to SAP evens, the CEO from clickup in the interview, we talked about all the updates coming out, you know, they really publishing so many things in such a short turn over time. And even you know, said, we rather put it out, and then we see how it goes, and then we fix it later. This works because a look at Evernote, I mean, if you change something, you know, people are raging about this, because their whole lives on this, I think click up is still so young people are more forgiving when they do these things. And it’s the same for me. So many times I’m sitting there when it is still loading, or when you change a field and it doesn’t update things like this. So I wanted to do actually a video where I say the number one shortcut you need to keep in mind using clickup is command R, reload your page, in order to see the updates. So there it is really the feature set and all the things and the end the pace I have into this brand, that they you know, eventually get to a point that it becomes reliable, reliable, but I really think that this all in one application solution gets in the way, all the time.

Unknown Speaker 11:12
I’ve been talking about it since some of my first videos, and I’ve made it known loud and proud. I’m hoping someday that model changes. But I think one, we have to say the positive, right, the positive of the iteration cycles, we see movements so much faster than other tools. And that I think is probably the same for you. That’s what gets us to stay around. Yeah. And that’s probably similar. For me, at least that’s similar to how our business works here, internally, we operate very similarly. And so I relate to the way that they’re just kind of iterating. But this move towards enterprise features is a big goal, from what I’ve understood, if they’re 2021 roadmap, they want to appeal to bigger companies, which makes sense, they’re trying to steal market share away from Monday, to an extent and Asana especially, maybe even you know, other tools, like teams, perhaps. But they’re doing all these big moves to go into these bigger organizations. And I hope that the benefit of that is that they’re going to start taking these things seriously, because I can not imagine a 200 person team, getting click up having their entire CRM loaded in this so called database and watching it as it spins through 2000 contacts or 20,000. Contacts, I think, I think the way they’re heading is gonna force them to mature in ways that the rest of us will benefit from.

Thomas Roedl 12:24
Yeah, I mean, I’m working since seven years and a big, big industry with more than 300,000 employees. I wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t really recommend click up for such companies yet, because we really need to rely on our data and accessibility and so on. And when I compare it to Asana, there were just far too many times when I had to reload or something went wrong, or I got an error messages, things like this, for all out out there, you know, including my clients where we implement clickup. Don’t worry, I think for these sizes, and for the purposes, that’s absolutely fine. But when I look at notion and how complex, I build my databases, there’s no way that I can break could bring this to click up and find my stuff later on. I mean, let’s talk about docs. It’s still it’s still a mess. I was excited looking at first glance, looking at talks. It looks like notion. I thought, Oh, great. But yeah, try to find this stuff later on. So what about referencing when you’re already hard, finding the stuff again? So this is really Any thoughts? I think this?

Unknown Speaker 13:34
Yeah, I think this goes back to what you were saying with AI, it always comes back to the app to replace them all. I think that’s why Doc’s exist, I think that’s why a lot of their half baked features like formulas exist, it’s because they’re trying to just halfway build things so that they can see if there’s interest. Yeah, but the problem is, they do a lot of these halfway builds. And then they go to the next halfway build. Because there’s just so many features that I don’t know what their teams up to now 100, maybe 75 people, they don’t have enough staff to really truly finish the iteration cycles on a lot of these. So dogs is one of those that they’ve been releasing a lot of bug fixes for but in terms of feature new features on that, it tends to get overlooked. What I seem to be seeing this year, especially as they’ve been maturing is that a lot of shiny new features, right? So we get one or two shiny new features at a slower pace, but they’re bigger features a lot of bug fixes. Yeah, everything in the middle. Usability things, little things have been driving you crazy, anything that’s a middle of the road feature. I haven’t seen any movement on it in this in the last few months here. It’s thing kind of one extreme or the other. Maybe the

Thomas Roedl 14:35
plan was, you know, we bring out half baked tools, and then they wait for the feedback to really focus on the things where the direction should go. It’s not a bad thing. But as I said, you need to have people who are willing to go this road. And if you go into enterprise here we go into trouble if you know, if you have something like this, you really have to point out the restrictions. You have it Click up when you come into these companies. And yeah, docks, I think docks is, for example, very useful when you create templates and your auto apply templates. And we have already a doc in place that you can fill up and things like this. But talking about templates, something I was talking about, since I started click up, which really annoys me is that they won’t make a difference between the major task and the sub task. So this means every sub task gets applied, or I mean, even the status you have, we have, for example, open to do waiting, closed, all these statuses apply to the sub task, which then makes no sense anymore. How do you handle this with your clients? Or how do you try to work around it?

Unknown Speaker 15:45
So I actually just made a training video on this yesterday inside the community that we run on the support site, because this question comes up like this is probably the third time I’ve answered this question in the q&a, because it just keeps coming up. And again,

Thomas Roedl 15:55
because are we spreading the word spreading,

Unknown Speaker 15:58
spreading the word? All right, so you have a task and a sub task, click ups too dumb to know that you want them to be simpler. And there’s even some training posts right now about this, the custom fields, the statuses, all the stuff that you have available for this main task comes down on the sub task as well. And I think that’s because at the very early stages, click, it was almost it felt like they were preparing for what is currently the relationships feature that these two things even the one says sub and one says task, they have pretty much all the same properties, except for permissions and a few other things. So in terms of workarounds, usually what else have people do is either and this is not ideal, ignore custom fields on subtasks, not ideal, or use checklists, if they can get away with it. Or use automations and templates to preset those those those extra custom fields. So you’ll have a drop down option that says not applicable, or subtask. This, this restriction with custom fields and subtasks is one of the reasons why a lot of times it’s a choice, do you want to use custom fields? Or do you want to make it a sub task? Do you either or so if it was a video as a task, and you had a custom field saying the stages of you know, edit, produce, publish that kind of stuff? Do not also make those subtasks? Do one or the other? Otherwise, you end up with the duplicate record keeping, which is frustrating? Yeah. Just I mean,

Thomas Roedl 17:15
instead of making a proper structure there, they just add, what is it seven? further levels down, isn’t it? So you have sub sub sub sub tasks all with the custom fields and so on? It is just confusing. And that’s what you mentioned in the beginning, you worried about showing this to clients because it is too complex and confusing. And I think it is, it still is I really try when I’m implementing clickup, to be as minimal as possible. But when we have something I don’t know, like, location field, for example. And I have for a main task a client, and I want to have the location from this client, I have a sub task for this client. I mean, I’m talking about client now. You concise and and you have using clicker for your clients. And so you have to location there, then you have a sub task with another location. So bring in your EBS and all this, they will start wondering about all these empty custom fields. Yeah, okay. So we

Unknown Speaker 18:18
attempted to solve this by collapsing custom fields and having the pinning feature, they’ve attempted a few ways, and I don’t think they ever really came to the right one. But that’s what I really do think we’re gonna see this change with relationships and the item types, which I know we probably ties into the database conversation from the onset, but I feel like this is something we’re gonna see change, just so that way. Maybe it’s even the language. But I think we’re all trying to make subtasks and clickup, like subtasks, in Asana. And in clickup, subtasks. In Asana equal checklists. That makes sense. Yeah. And I think we often try to, yeah, it’s just a different way of thinking about the logic is almost just different.

Thomas Roedl 18:59
Yeah, that checklists actually, is limiting. Again, I can’t add content. So obviously, so that was actually the moment. Let me try to recall this the moment when I was complaining about subtasks when I was trying to build up my very complex automations. Obviously, I hate manual input and all this. So I was building this up. And then I really saw the restriction when the sub task came in. That I wasn’t able, I don’t know what it was, was able to, okay, I can’t remember now. But this was one thing that I thought, okay, it needs to be differentiated. But maybe I want to create a sub task with different templates. So in it, so like, yeah, with Docs or something applied like this.

Unknown Speaker 19:46
I just really think clickup they’re terrible with naming their terms sometimes. So using the word subtask. Even it brings up all these connotations with clickup. It really can sometimes feel like a different language once it’s set up in the right way. Do you still think lookup is very attainable, and because not everything in one place, but a lot of features are in one place, it does limit some of the context switching that you’d have to do with the more hodgepodge solutions people are moving from. But I do think it takes a little bit of explanation to be like, Alright, this is the way that it works here, oh, you need that kind of Oh, moment and click up, whereas Asana, it’s just a to do list in many ways. It Yeah, let’s play probably come in Monday.

Thomas Roedl 20:27
Difference between Asana and click up, I think it still is, is the bird’s eye view that I get and click up. And it’s not possible in Asana without manual input. So I have two portfolios. Both have the portfolios, where I can manually pick some projects, and, you know, show me an overview. But in kcap, you just go to the different hierarchy levels, and you see everything below this. And that’s really exciting. On the other hand, you get things messed up when you have loads of different statuses, and custom fields and all this and these different lists. So I really tend for my team now, I got rid of all the different spaces. Is it spaces, yes. and ended up with one space and lists in there, rather than have different spaces. And I think it is still another issue to really find your your task, yes, we can build the views. So that’s what I do. I go to the upper level, and then I create a view for my employee. And then you know, further by the task, and this is really where clickup shines is the views, the customization, what I can pick there, when I look at the GM diagram, and again, in comparison with Asana, they’re so far ahead with customization there that I can build as part. This is why people need us as consultants, you know that that’s not something where I say, you’re not able to do this, you need me for this. Yeah, well, you can try first. And then we will see how easy it goes. Yeah. So I always say it’s better when, when you tested it for yourself first. That’s what I also recommend downloaded first, you know, play around, you can’t break anything. So you know. But to really set up the proper system. Usually people don’t want to spend time implementing tools. They have a busy time, they are not as excited about implementing this stuff as we are. You know, sometimes I’ve wondered about, ah, there’s been so much fun. But yeah, it’s not for everybody. So that’s rather frustrating than for for other people. So workarounds and tricks like this with the views and setting up this, this saves also a lot of money, isn’t it? Because something I don’t get still is the home page that you haven’t clicked up as a member. I am not about I don’t know about you. But I’m a member and the rest is guests of my team. Because I don’t see the advantage paying for my employees as well. Being in click up just for the home button, is there anything else that I’m missing that they will miss?

Unknown Speaker 23:09
Yes, so this is a good lead in now I’m gonna release some videos about the quirks of guest access because it’s a little deceptive click ups. Doc’s aren’t great around the differences, but some of the big ones are clip, that’s a big feature that misses that you missed for for guests, which is the video loom feature and click up where you can take video recordings. Okay, we use that a lot. And so I ended up upgrading some of my numbers simply for that feature. editability of dashboards, ownership of different areas. And if you have a bigger team, sharing a whole space with one group of one person without having to share every individual folder, and list, those are really some of the main advantages of becoming of flipping someone from a member. But for VA

Thomas Roedl 23:48
contractors absolutely agree we have to differentiate between the team team sizes, I’m talking here about my team size of four. But if we if you you know get in the range of 10 people or more, then it becomes complex, where you have to have a lot of admin work to do. Giving the sharing permissions and all this without our tools. Absolutely agree about this. And yeah, that that that’s a great point. But if you want to save money, then I think using their views is a good way better people because I always had to struggle or my my employees had struggled to find their tasks. So we missed our task. As we use slack. On the other hand, we very quickly go into this pay, can you do this? I have to go and click up and create this task. So we really know it but then it ends up somewhere. So with the views, this is really something that I say Okay, first thing in the morning, you do, go to your view and go to your notification section usually could work the whole day just in notifications, that’s something great as well. But for the home thing, I think there’s something they have a good start, but they really have to Do something great there that makes it really useful.

Unknown Speaker 25:04
I have a bit of a sneak peek. I don’t know how much am I allowed to share? But on the homeless?

Thomas Roedl 25:09
Well don’t listen now. Layla is talking only to me.

Unknown Speaker 25:16
I am going to try to keep it vague. So I’m not sure how much I’m allowed to say. So everyone who’s watching this? Don’t tell.

Thomas Roedl 25:23
Don’t tell everyone. Share the video with everybody with your friends family all but don’t tell anyone about this minute What is I don’t know. Okay, go ahead. We not listening,

Unknown Speaker 25:36
home dashboards and folders, those three features in clickup. We’ve been predicting for a long time that there’s going to be some kind of marriage. And some of the stuff that I’ve seen behind the scenes in the staging environment of clickup is very much moving in that direction. So home right now, it looks like a dashboard in some ways, but it’s not customizable at all. I’m getting the sense that dashboard, adjustability is going to come into the homepage. Similarly, with folders, kind of that kind of adjustability of seeing kind of an overview at that level and not having dashboards off at the middle of nowhere. I think that’s going to make home a lot more useful. But right now homing inbox. I mean, I think that’s great for bare bones users who just need focus. And maybe they don’t have an everything view set up yet. But I would much rather see click up just make a default everything view called My Tasks that’s required and get rid of inbox altogether. But that’s me. Yeah.

Thomas Roedl 26:31
This is this was that’s the same thing that I had in mind. It It looks like a dashboard. But it is not customizable. And you know, the The main advantage you have there is assigned to you. comments and mentions. Yeah, but I can build a view again out of this. So there’s not really need for this. And what about the line up? I mean, they made it made it even the trademark. So it is it is

Unknown Speaker 27:01
put some energy into that one who,

Thomas Roedl 27:05
essentially you’re pinning your tasks to your dashboard. And that’s what I call line up. So I expect as some automation AI or whatever going on later on. That gives me some more prioritization options and some something like that. Otherwise, I don’t see why there is a trademark behind this.

Unknown Speaker 27:23
I have a field Well, first of all, if they were able to just trademark that great name in the space, I feel like that’s probably part of it. But I have this feeling that that’s going to go into a space where clickup starts to build out their profile feature. So right now clickup has profiles that pretty much show you nothing other than activity in lineup, which is one perk of lineups. So if you’re trying to coordinate like what is your VA have on your plate that day? lineup can be great for that. I don’t know why lineup and tray, which is at the bottom that you can do, you can collapse tasks to the bottom for folks who don’t know that. I don’t know why those aren’t the same. They seem like they should just be the same feature, basically. But I think lineup is gonna feed into a future where clickup has stronger profiles, where you might be able to have one on one messaging, more of a Microsoft Teams kind of feeling to it. I would not be surprised if that’s where that’s heading. And maybe like you’re saying automations maybe adding something to someone’s lineup if it’s a priority over this. I mean, that could be really cool right now. Yeah, has one of those features where it’s like, I don’t understand why.

Thomas Roedl 28:25
Yeah, you don’t understand what’s mentioned, it’s the trace. So for those people who don’t know, you can select certain tasks, and they will just stay available on the bottom of the screen. It is also you know, the favorites on the top again, when if you like that’s how I set everything up, I have the top view there. So you have a mix of use and project as well. But you are right, we have to trace yeah, I forgot about this. And, yeah, instead of going to the home button, I’m on a completely different screen, I disconnect myself from the actual task list. I rather have it as a tray in the bottom.

Unknown Speaker 29:06
Yeah, that’s what I would love to see. And I mean, it’s nice, that profile is kind of a right side modal, whatever you want to call that kind of the swipe in effect. But things like home inbox and stuff that’s super segmented out. Sometimes it just becomes kind of a distraction. Like you say, I usually tell people if anyone’s feeling lost and click up in notifications, clear that out not don’t treat it like email where it piles up, cleared out Inbox Zero style every day. And then go to your view. Yeah, and everybody every single team is watching this or using click up should have an everything view for my task group by due date. That’s default for everyone so that way even your VA although she might not have everything view if she’s a guest, that’s another downside of guests but put it somewhere that your VA can find it.

Thomas Roedl 29:50
Well, she’ll have her you know, she will see wherever she has tasks and so it is everything everything for her

Unknown Speaker 29:58
but she won’t see the views you create there. You’d want to create a folder if there’s a folder she shared on that kind of thing, but I don’t want to confuse people with that piece of it.

Thomas Roedl 30:07
I think okay, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 30:10
we’re getting really nerdy here. But yeah, that’s, that’s kind of the flow.

Thomas Roedl 30:13
Yeah. Okay. So talking about redundant stuff. I wonder about the chat functionality, I really liked that they have a chat functionality. In fact, it is the same as a commenting system inside the task. What I really miss here is, and this would be awesome, then I would, you know, this would be really a game changer. connecting a chat to a journal and slack. This would be really the thing where I’m, I think this makes sense. However, I usually say, I mean, I have, for example, a client where say, yeah, we have one list you’re working in, and you have, you know, these views, and you have a chat. And because they’re not using anything else, and I always a fan of single source of truth. And as soon you talk on different places, it really gets messed up. So usually, I say, when you have a meeting, you go to the task you’re talking about, and you write down in the comments on the task. But if you have some general discussions, then the chat becomes in handy. Yeah, any thoughts about chat?

Unknown Speaker 31:25
Yeah, I agree with you in terms of the guidance you give to your clients. I mean, I wouldn’t tell you if I didn’t know I’m kidding. But I do agree with keeping conversations at the lowest level in the hierarchy as possible. I feel like that’s a hard thing for people to get used to when they have a chat view. They’re like, Oh, I’ll use this, like slack. Don’t do that. That’s why slack is a mess of things. I mean, it’s its ease of input versus ease of retrieval. And I mean, that’s your language, I’m sure. So we really want to put things in context. So they’re easier to retrieve versus doing the slack method. But I actually, I don’t think clickup is going to do that kind of integration with Slack, especially now that slack is owned by Salesforce, I have a feeling based on some of the demos, I’ve seen that click ups going to try to replace lack go figure right with a moto. But I have a feeling that they’re going to create tasks that have no attributes. And the item type, which is like the the property defaults would be nothing but a task name, task, description, and chat and everything else will be hidden. And that’ll be your checks, flannel checks.

Thomas Roedl 32:29
Trade market.

Unknown Speaker 32:32
Hashtag.

Thomas Roedl 32:37
We haven’t recorded so we look it up later.

Unknown Speaker 32:40
You put a brain here. Yeah. So but I think that’s probably where they’re going to go. I don’t think they’re going to do a stronger integration with Slack, I think most likely, we’re going to see tasks become more agnostic with the properties. And so we’ll be able to use the task themselves as the channel or as the DM path. And that’s what I’ve seen them do in some of their demos, even publicly. They’ve started using it that way.

Thomas Roedl 33:01
Okay. So I really like click up because I have to say something positive. As far as I’m using it, I’m recommending it. So I’m always pitching against this. So

Unknown Speaker 33:15
it’s a sign of love, right? Yeah.

Thomas Roedl 33:19
Yeah, yeah, take it as the spirit that is meant to be. And the thing is, and it’s something I’m really fighting for, with the paperless movement, and where I think this is, the COVID thing is bad that it happens. But it pushed us so much forward, when it comes to remote work and all this, because it finally started for so many people who were forced to use this stuff, to change their thinking. And if you’re following of my channel, I’m also selling the digital channel where you can that you can import into your notability good notes. No Java, you can journaling with your Apple Pencil and all this, that’s fine. But people are shocked when I tell them I’m not using it myself. Tom, you are selling their sand, you know, you’re just making out of money. And as And now, I’m giving you the solution you’re looking you’re asking for. Okay, so this is just, that’s great. If you used to use a paper notebook, and your whole life is in this paper notebook, then you have now the opportunity to make an easy conversion into the digital world by still using a pen. You have your iPad, you have it saved in the cloud, you make it searchable, you know, you can convert it into type text and all these advantages that you have. But with the apps we have on the iPad, it is still just one closed system. So because the next question would be, how do you work with the notes that you take? How do you and that’s the icore framework, I’m coaching about the input, control output refine. For me, the digital journal is just the input file. And for me, it ends there because for most tools, there’s no connection to the outside. And this is why I think something like clickup. And all the other tools and things that happened in in the past year is that we finally start to how to how to start leveraging the digital world instead of just living in it. So because things like, you know, I’m going on and on. But talking to Ian small from Evernote, he told me only 2% of their customers using tags in Evernote. And as Okay, that’s, that’s Wow. And I made a poll on my different social media channels. And 50% said they are using it, of course, people following me are very, you know, into tag and they like it. And this just made me think this is just because people don’t know the advantage of this yet. This is because we think in the way like a paper notebook. So this is why I think it is great to start with the digital journal and all this. But if you really want to make in a highly efficient productivity system, then we need to look at the other stages, how to collect information, how to easily find information, how to leverage the information, for getting things done, and all this and refine it with automations. And all this, there’s so much more, which is overwhelming for people. It’s always great to start small. And yeah, clickup I think ticks so many boxes where you can go from a simple workflow to really high complex automated system.

Unknown Speaker 36:39
I couldn’t agree on speech

Thomas Roedl 36:40
there. Sorry. But I think there was important to point out,

Unknown Speaker 36:45
and I think clickup also can grow with you. That’s the big thing. We talked about why it’s inappropriate for a $300,000 or 300,000 person company $3,000. But, but for the small companies that are you know, 510 scaling up to their first 200 people, I mean, this is the only tool right now that I would feel comfortable saying we’ll grow with you that level to like from zero to 60 in the same space, but also what you said about how people ask you what you use, and that kind of thing. I think that’s also really interesting. I want to emphasize that because I feel like you just glossed over that golden nugget. But that that is such a great point. Because people ask me, How do you organize your clickup? How do you blah, blah, blah? Yeah, and I think that’s the wrong question. It’s it. Yeah, unless your business is like mine, your processes are like mine, that templates not gonna help you, which is one of my one of my big

Thomas Roedl 37:38
sticks. 100% agree with you Layla. I mean, this is exactly the point why I created the Ico framework. Because the framework, best example, for notion, there are so many causes that tell you how to make the all in one solution for you to use notion for your project management, I can’t hear and see it anymore. Because I tried it, he did trust me, I’m not just you know, I’m not just complaining about this, I testing these things. And if I have to work a whole day to get task dependencies in place, and they are just confusing or non recurring tasks. So you can go there and uncheck the boxes in the morning. And then you check it again. Yeah, this makes it you know, get me Don’t get me wrong. This makes sense. Again, for several certain use cases where you have a small task list every day, the things, I’m running a business, I have a full time job, I have several other projects going on all over the place, if I don’t have the discipline is just too restricting. And I think that’s the danger with these here looked as cause but you will need to use notion in order to apply my templates and all this. And then you live in this and then people start with this are very excited. We know this setting up a new productivity system, you excited friction is no problem. But as soon you have to use it on a daily basis, it really gets into the way. And this is why the STI core framework where you have there, you learn how to understand the different parts of a productivity system and find the right tools. If some of you are in a circle. You watched my masterclass about this, I showed you exactly why I’m using notion and click both because input control is notion for me. And output refiners click up if I have notion the whole way through. I have a big loss of efficiency. So but I have a manual step to get the information from notion to click up, which I hate. But in summary, it makes you more efficient using both does it make sense combination of tools?

Unknown Speaker 39:52
Absolutely. I spent a lot of my time in the course just telling people not to use click for things because I mean, you can’t But there’s an opportunity cost of you could you could buy a social media scheduler on a free plan. Or you could build a whole social media scheduler and click up there’s, I think we to assess the limitations of the tool. And I think template packs, I keep harping on those, because I think those are more common sometimes then even courses where it’s just, here’s the way to run your entire business out of whatever tool and what you were saying about frameworks, how you have the micro framework. I like what I like about frameworks is it teaches you the logic, it shows you the logic and allows you to make your own decisions. It’s like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, if you’ve ever read those kind of cool books from the 90s. But anyway, uh, whereas templates, they’re giving you the destination, and they’re saying here, live in this dream house, it’s pre furnished, hope you like the furnishings and your size medium, you know,

Thomas Roedl 40:48
you just have to change your whole life. So this template work for you. Exactly. Cover me. So you can use my template.

Unknown Speaker 40:57
Exactly. So I do the same thing you do. It’s all about frameworks, decision trees, logic breakdowns of yes, no, here’s the right solution based on your answers. And I think that’s what we don’t talk about that there’s more than one way to the right solution for you. But there’s not always we’re typically even a right solution, period.

Thomas Roedl 41:16
Yeah. And this is really, that’s really the danger also for big enterprises and so on. I mean, I saw this many times, where, you know, for some reason, Trello was decided of Asana and things like this. And I can imagine how this worked out. The salesperson came in, and I said, Okay, this is an all in one solution, you can use it and I said, Okay, you know, the critical guy is sitting there evaluating this tool and saying, but can I do this? And I say, yeah, of course, and they tell you a workaround, or something that you can do this. But then of course, they don’t tell you, another tool could do this part. More importantly, and maybe this is exactly the part that you’re doing most in this tool. So you’re buying it for the shiny object syndrome thing for things that you might don’t even need, instead of actually getting the tool that you really need for your business or your team.

Unknown Speaker 42:04
And that’s why I think it’s important that people who are experts in a tool are keeping their eyes open, right? Like you’re in so many different areas of the space, you’re talking about clickup, when you know, you’re focused a lot on notetaking. And similarly, I’m keeping an eye of an ocean account. I have you know, I’ve been trying all these accounts, because, and this is where I think clickup has made a I hope they make a pivot. But the after replace them all, I think is is a dead end personally, but the app to work with them all or the app to manage them all. I wish I think that’s where click ups real sweet spot is rather than bundling by owning ah prepared proprietary piece of technology, cobbling it together to just work with a lot of tools, I wish clickup would integrate to slack, I don’t think they will. I wish clickup had more supported embedding features. But oftentimes, I’m in the same place as you where I’m like, Well, you’d be better off using air table, then click as a database for this. And then Luckily, yeah, cool. Yeah,

Thomas Roedl 42:57
no, go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 42:59
I was just gonna say Luckily, clickup allows you to embed views. So it’s, it’s in many ways, like notion. It’s pretty adaptable in terms of bringing things in. It’s slightly more flexible, the notion of taking things out, but it’s still not perfect. Yeah. I just wish that there was more there. And then

Thomas Roedl 43:13
there’s the other argument from the people saying, Yeah, but I’m not paying another subscription. I can’t hear this anymore. I mean, that’s one thing. When people say, well, there’s a free solution for this, nothing is free. Don’t tell me this is free, you know, but that’s another story. But if people tell me, but if I have five tools in place, then instead of one, I’m paying five times the price, and I say, Okay, what is the pricing for these tools nowadays, sometimes it’s only, you know, let’s say $10 per month, if you and this is again, what I say then when you have your framework, you understand this much better, if you save only 10 minutes per day, by having a more efficient system end to end, just use your hourly rate. And you will have a lot more money available to buy even more tools than you would need by you know, sitting a whole day and trying to set up something a notion that just don’t work. And it’s just applying friction to your whole life. So this is another topic, I think, where we have to change our mindset.

Unknown Speaker 44:20
I definitely agree in templates, when it’s free to set up. So you can create a CRM and click up or selling because I made a video about that you can, but there’s a certain cost. There’s always a time cost. But there’s also that ongoing cost that you’re talking about of maintaining something that’s less automatic click is not a true CRM, it’s not the client database at best. And I think that’s that’s a really good point. And it’s not that we’re talking about a lot more cost to use air table. In addition to click up, oftentimes, you can use the free plan, but the extra setup of having two separate tools as long as they’re able to connect in a way that you’re able to see them both at the same time, not spend time context switching, you know, flipping gear, flipping gear. And go open in, in other tabs and such. It’s worth it to get a tool that’s a whole development team just focused on that feature.

Thomas Roedl 45:09
Yeah. And I’m really excited that I’m in a better program from Plexi. And they connected to do with with clickup. Now, and this is really exciting, it works very well will be published very soon. Another Sneak Peek, maybe not allowed to say that. So what if we can

Unknown Speaker 45:29
look at those last

Thomas Roedl 45:30
two months, I’m writing them bring out this to bring out this connection, bring out this connection. And it works really realized you can actually select different lists, and it creates projects into the list and you have in sync there with the things and yeah, to do is for me is still the best personal Task Manager it is. So I have just a simple list to take off. And going into click up it is the too much friction. The loading time is for me too long. Opening up. Yes, they have now a new mobile app, maybe let’s go into this. I’m really happy about the release. First I thought okay, so what what’s that, but in fact, it actually works very well, compared to the previous one, obviously. So I have big hopes that, yeah, they conquer the other devices now as well.

Unknown Speaker 46:22
Absolutely. And I think that’s important to note is that when they take step forward, it tends to be the right step. Sometimes we wish they would take a bigger step. But I like the steps that they’re taking. And we’re we’ve been so critical in this video, we’re gonna get so many comments about how critical we are. But

Thomas Roedl 46:38
what should you know, I always say when I’m in an interview with one of the CEOs, I say, okay, we know don’t we don’t read down your marketing strategy here. We talking about the heat stuff behind it, either they’re up for this, and then they can show their hurt. There’s a face behind the two. And they’re, you know, everybody struggles for something. But if you stand up for this and say, Okay, look, this is like this, and so on. I think Ian small, for example, did a great job in the last interviews, where he addressed the concerns for people. And they have people like us where they have the option to speak to the community, instead of having a generic blog post or something where people always have to feeling reading something on their own page is not real, if that makes sense. So okay, so I left this critical thing. That’s the reason why you’re on the show. I’m sure we have to do a follow up later.

Unknown Speaker 47:30
We’ll have to do a nice version follow up, because there is a lot of good stuff. They’re doing things with support and localization. And they’re fixing bugs. I mean, they’re good things. But yeah,

Thomas Roedl 47:41
I don’t think it was too bad. Okay, no, well,

Unknown Speaker 47:43
we’ll see what people say they can leave a comment, let us know

Thomas Roedl 47:45
how we should just reach down below and see how it goes? No, I mean, it is it is I think we are critical. But we both implement clickup. We both recommended to people over other tools in many cases. So this is absolutely allowed. I think it’s important to point out not to become the salesperson. That’s why I asked for response. The thing is wonderful thing in the beginning. You know, otherwise, I would be the salesperson I say yeah, clickup is awesome. And we sitting here for one hour, I’m sure there are many more people now still watching, compared when we said oh yeah, click up is nice. Yeah. Click ups. Nice. Oh, yeah. Didn’t you see, you know, you can now check off tasks or whatever, you know, yeah. I see this in on their website as far as okay. Don’t worry about critical thing. And that’s why I love your channel. So if you haven’t seen lilash channel now, go over there. Subscribe, if you interested in click up. And in general, I mean, it’s not only about clickup, it’s really a lot of videos where you show about things like the business process or your own workflows, getting him changing your mindset about your overall system, and then apply click up in the end or apply to click up in the end and things like this. And this is why I really like it. It’s not just reading the, the specifications of the tool, which I see so many times on YouTube.

Unknown Speaker 49:15
Yeah, I would say if there’s one video folks to watch to understand how much of a hot mess I was in, click up when I started so they would feel better about themselves. I released a video talking about like, how I managed personal productivity, and it goes through 2019 2020 and 2021 of the different ways I organized myself and click up and the whole first year was just probably where many of you are so that would be the one.

Thomas Roedl 49:38
Yeah, and it’s the thing. I mean, trust us, we all had the same struggles and we still struggling maybe on a different level. But this is where we can accelerate us access by applying our experiences to this so you don’t have to go through this again. And I think that’s that’s all thing about consulting and memberships and so on. And obviously this is not for free. How sure is you know we have to feed families. So okay. Yeah. I love it. Thank you very much for being on the show. Laila. And I really think we should follow up. People will like this. And if you like this, give it a thumbs up. Go do three, three steps up, subscribe to this channel, subscribe to this channel. And Lyla, one, a few final words from your side. Maybe? No, no, good. No two, there’s

Unknown Speaker 50:32
only final words. I always say which I mean, I would just say enjoy the process. Yeah, that’s that was my final words. Enjoy it.

Thomas Roedl 50:45
Don’t get frustrated that that’s really the thing. It’s It’s It’s not. It’s not bad. If you struggle,

Unknown Speaker 50:53
yeah, struggles fun. Yeah, that’s the creative part.

Thomas Roedl 50:56
Yeah. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 50:59
Or at least inside thing. Thanks for having me on here, Tom.

Thomas Roedl 51:02
Okay, thanks. See you next time. Have a great time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai